Coming Soon: More Love, More Joy, More Real Talk About Life with a Cleft

In Smile Train’s conversations with the US cleft community, a common theme popped up again and again: People with clefts were longing for a space just for them, somewhere they could learn, grow, connect, and just be together with others who understand. We responded by organizing Cleft Con, an honest, immersive, interactive experience by and for the cleft community.

One of the most popular sessions at Cleft Con 2021 featured cleft activists and Cleft Community Advisory Council members Iva Ballou and Ashley Barbour discussing the reality of dating with a cleft. Their conversation was sparkling, engaging, enraging, hopeful, devastating, electric, addicting… the chat exploded with calls for them to start a podcast.

Thus Love Meets Joy — the only podcast featuring real talk by and for people with clefts — was born.

Since the first season launched in September 2022, the podcast has gone on to earn a devoted following and a 4.8/5 rating on Apple Podcasts — and Iva has officially joined Smile Train as our Manager of Cleft Community Development.

In honor of the launch of season two and Cleft Awareness Month, we caught up with Iva and Ashley to learn what’s on their minds as they head back to the studio.

What is it like for you to have such intimate conversations with each other knowing they’re being recorded and broadcast? How has it affected your friendship? Your understanding of yourselves?

IVA: I discovered things about myself through this podcast that I didn't even know I didn’t know yet. So it’s not just that I’m telling things to the audience, I’m also telling them to myself for the very first time.

We would have certain conversations and be startled to realize how similar our experiences are. She's a Caucasian woman from the Midwest, I'm an African American woman from the South, so on the surface, you wouldn’t necessarily think that our trajectory was the same. But even recently, we were just like, “Oh wow, we both read the Archie Comics!” It’s these different things that make us think we really had the same childhood and the same experiences.

But the beauty is that there are other moments, and they also come up in the podcast, where we don't have the same view. Where our experiences do differ, but we're still able to appreciate each other's journeys.

And so that's also been the experience from listeners, too. People have told me, “I was on the metro, and I had to stop listening because I was crying so hard that I couldn’t see.”

I told that person to please be safe, but to have so many other people with clefts say how much they felt heard in this podcast means people feel like they’re hearing their own stories for the first time.

That’s why we had to do a season two; we had to put out more because there's more of our stories that need to be told, and I feel like us telling our stories has also empowered a lot of other people who might not have been ready to tell their own.

ASHLEY: It’s funny because although I know that our conversations are being recorded and broadcast, when we’re having them, it feels like it’s just Iva and me. It feels like we’re just sitting over a cup of tea or coffee sharing our experiences. There are moments of levity and moments of introspection and moments of sadness. We really span the gambit. 

Many friendships don’t get deep super quickly; it often takes time to dive into the stuff that makes us who we are at our core. But, with this podcast, Iva and I are constantly diving into topics that have powerfully impacted us and molded us into the people we are. We talk about the hard stuff and have since the beginning, which I think has caused us to become close very quickly. 

I think talking to Iva, who in many ways has had very similar experiences to mine, helps me better understand myself and give myself more grace. To me, part of the importance of being part of the cleft community is being able to see the worthiness in other people like me. It’s been easier for me to see beauty in others first. But then I realize they were born with a cleft, just like me. If I can see those things in them, I should be able to see them in me, too. The cleft community and my conversations with Iva have helped me to feel much more confident and accepting towards myself. 

The podcast WE NEEDED!

Amazing!! Ashley and Iva are LOVELY and so fun [to] listen to! Hits you in the feels and makes you laugh! Listening makes me feel like I’m having a conversation with a friend. I am so glad there is a podcast teaching, advocating, and sharing their cleft journeys. We need more of this!! 

- Apple Podcasts review

How do you pick the topics for the podcasts? Do you already know what you're talking about for season two?

IVA: So that's the problem with me and Ashley — we can talk too much, alright. Ariel, our producer, will tell you that we can go into tangents. So it often starts like that — we'll start on a big tangent and then we'll kind of find the key, like, “Okay. This is a big moment that we have to address.”

For season one, we knew we had to talk about dating and clefts. That's a really big thing; we both want one day to have spouses, so we're going to talk about that. We also had to talk about clefts and media representation because we both said that growing up, we did not have someone we could look up to for guidance, someone who could let us know that it’s going to be okay because you can be like me.

For season two, our process will probably be the same. We both like to maybe bullet a sentence or an idea or a memory in our preproduction meetings, but we don't rehearse our conversations ahead of time. We really try to make sure that what the audience hears is also our first time telling it so it's authentic. If you hear me laughing or if you hear Ashley saying something, that is truly our response to each other in the conversation.

What you hear on the podcast is us talking for about an hour and a half — two if Ariel will let us — going through different stories and figuring it out as we go.

ASHLEY: One thing I’ll add: For season two, we wanted to explore interviews more. We wanted to bring in more voices from the cleft community and showcase the incredible things people are doing. One of my goals has always been to show new parents who have received a cleft diagnosis that their baby will be okay and is capable of amazing things. I think season two helps to show that. Yes, we were born with a cleft, but look at the incredible lives so many of us are living.

I didn’t know I needed this! 

As a fellow 30 something cleft affected female I had no idea how much I needed to hear this! It feels like talking with my closest friends who can fully understand everything I have experienced and continue to experience. Thank you thank you! I can’t say enough how much I appreciate listening and how connected it makes me feel to the cleft community. 

- Apple Podcasts review

You’ve said that the podcast has helped you to do new things and notice new things in yourself. Could you share an example?

IVA: I know that before I began to really love my cleft and be the cleft-confident woman everyone knows me as, I was telling myself a very different story and my life reflected that.

Ever since I started to tell the story that I'm confident with my cleft, that my cleft makes me beautiful, that honestly, I could not imagine myself without my cleft, my world has changed drastically. I realized okay, if I tell a great story about my life, my life will be great. And that has been so beautiful and framing.

I think that's what people connect with when they listen to Love Meets Joy. You hear two women who have gone through things and moments that were challenging and traumatic, but made an intentional choice that, you know what? That happened. But I'm now going to write something different for myself. And people are hearing and reading that new story that we're putting out there and finding it meaningful.

ASHLEY: Love Meets Joy has helped me continue to reflect on how my cleft has impacted my life and shaped me into who I am. The more I talk about it and my experiences, the more confident I become. This work with Iva has been an integral part of that.

What’s surprised you about season one, about the journey of the podcast so far?

IVA: Truthfully? All of it, from the very beginning. When we decided we were interested in listening to popular demand and doing a podcast together, Smile Train helped us start it. When we saw the artwork they produced for it for the first time, how truly it encapsulated us — if I had to show someone what Love Meets Joy looks like, I would show them that picture, because that's it. Even the theme music — Ariel listened to us and got it exactly right. All of it has been such a surprise.

But if I had to go down to an episode, it would have to be the one with our moms, giving them that space to share their side of our cleft journey. Obviously cleft-affected moms have their own journey right alongside ours, but it intertwines with ours, too, and to be able to have an audio record and visual of us talking to them and learning things that we might not have known….

Like one thing that Ashley’s mom said that gave me so much respect for her was when she talked about when she was pregnant with Ashley and they realized that she had a cleft, everybody kind of ran to her, but no one checked on her dad. Her mom had the love and compassion in that moment to also check on him. I thought that that was beautiful.

Or to have my mom say, “Yes, I knew that you had a cleft, but I always knew that you would be this confident woman.” And I'm like, “You did? Because I didn't know this!” And she said, “Yeah.”

And I think that was just beautiful. It's a gift that was given to us that we will always have.

ASHLEY: Another one, for me, is how much work goes into creating a podcast. I thought I was more prepared for it going into season two, but I continue to be surprised. Because it has involved more interviews, Iva and I were constantly learning to be good interviewers. That change alone allowed Iva and me to continue our growth exponentially. 

Clearly Love Meets Joy is giving similar moments to your listeners, too. Do you have any more stories from your audience about how this podcast has touched them?

IVA: Absolutely. People have started tagging us in their lipstick selfies. One woman reached out to tell us how she started posting pictures of herself from the front instead of to the side, then two other women that she looks up to let her know that they now felt confident to start doing the same thing.

I'm not often lost for words, but that was major for me.

You know, I'm just telling my story and I'm telling it confidently, and Ashley is doing the same. And by doing that, we are really helping others in the cleft community. To know that the podcast is doing that, that it’s achieving its goal, is very rewarding. That’s the best part.

ASHLEY: The lipstick selfies, like Iva said, are one of my favorite things to come from season one. One of my dreams for the podcast is that it be interesting and relevant for people within the facial difference community and for those outside of it. I’ve learned that many of the overarching themes are universal: A desire for love, acceptance, and a sense of belonging; finding your place in the world; loving ourselves not despite our differences, but because of them. So, when one of my coworkers (not part of the facially different community) told me that she was listening to the podcast and really enjoying it, that meant a lot to me. She said she loved it because she realized she needed to hear many of the things Iva and I talked about. It was powerful to hear someone say that they were touched by our words and that those universal truths came through. 

I love the positive vibes!

I know Ashley from TikTok and share her story with my friends and family because she is such a beautiful and inspirational woman. I am so excited I get to hear more of her story [and] learn from her life experience and [views] on beauty and authenticity. I’m not even a part of the [cleft] community but I love hearing these women share the broader takeaways that are relevant to all of us living with any type of body difference. I feel so much more enlightened about the cleft community. It has grown my understanding and removed any questions or stigma I might have associated with facial differences. Keep up the amazing work ladies!! 

- Apple Podcasts review

What else is ahead for season two?

IVA: For season two, I think you'll see a little bit more maturity from both Ashley and me. We’ve grown and our friendship has, too. So there’s going to be more chemistry.

We loved the mom session so much that we now want to do one about dads. Yes, my father has passed away, but I still would like to have Ashley’s dad on. She always talks about how at night, instead of bedtime stories, he would do role-playing with her: They would act out different scenarios she might encounter so that she could get comfortable with how she would respond.

We’ve likewise talked about maybe having our siblings or even a friend from childhood on, because that's also a very big component of the cleft journey.

We are also excited to have some more guests from the community — including connecting with and even celebrating those who wrote into share their stories, because we're trying to create a sense of community through this podcast, and there is a community who now say Love Meets Joy has been an important part of their cleft journey. We’re excited to have them on to learn more and celebrate that.

ASHLEY: Yes! More raw conversations, more voices at the table, laughter, some tears, and continued friendship.

Lessons for everyone… understanding and loving others! No matter their differences. These two women have a powerful message.

- Apple Podcasts review

Want to be inspired today? Listen to Love Meets Joy season one here or wherever you get your podcasts.